Author Topic: Transponders  (Read 2860 times)

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Offline Tim Kingham

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Transponders
« on: May 24, 2019, 08:19:52 pm »
I have mentioned this before but let me expand
If I race or do a track day gone are the timekeepers and lap counters we had at Silversone at the late lamented MCC High speed Trials no its all done with a transponder attached to the bike and I guess to cars too
What if we fitted them to long distance trials machines?
1, time of for leaving and arriving done automatically sections , stops, breakfast and end =marshalls reduced
2. route checking done =marshalls reduced
3.identity assured without a good visible number= more accurate results
4 results compiled without as much work=happier volunteers
 
an idea to pursue?

Offline Mark Gregg

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2019, 08:03:11 am »
THE FUTURE.. The sooner its adopted the better.. that we run events over hundreds of miles in 2019 without using any digital equipment would have most folks scratching their heads..couple of BIG caveats though before we use such technology.

1. must be affordable and reliable . if anybody has knowledge of the available systems thinks one is appropriate i would certainly consider trialling it. ( no pun intended)

2. The club relies on and is made up of many members who do not compete, for them participating as a marshal/official is their interest this must not be denuded in any way.   

Offline Paul Wheatley

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2019, 08:56:15 am »
A few things spring to mind:

A) How is the club going to pay for this system? The club is always short of money and this would require a significant "up front" investment.
B) Who is going to set up the static equipment, and rapidly move it to the next section or checkpoint - how many sets are we going to buy?
C) What happens when the equipment fails during the trial?
D) The ethos of the club is "Classic". Do we want to turn the events into a faceless set of toll booths?   
PW.

Offline Jonathan Laver

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2019, 03:15:22 pm »
Thanks Tim, I am sure it is a question of looking at what is currently available to us and what could be used. There are specific peculiarities to our events, not least the marshals being a “Judge of Fact”. When there is a query regarding a result, we can go back to a person, who might well remember writing down their observation. Regarding time checks – yes that could work quite well.  The main events have always included a timing aspect, which competitors have to meet. The imposing of these time limits, has in the past, ranged from being very ridged to reasonably lack. The reason for this has been down to the different C of C`s, results team coordinators, changing conditions (traffic/ weather) and protracted official delays. It could be, with the possible introduction of automated time control recording, the entire nature of our events would revert back to the old days. A fair and realistic “official delay” time would become transparent and those competitors who are running late would gain penalties. In every event, some competitors stop and spectate. Well that’s up to them but they should not then expect to go without a time penalty. The obvious application now, would be automating timing for Class R. Post event, C of C`s  would also gain a clear view of how their event timing ran and be able to adjust the following year.  In regard to mobile phones, reception in all areas for all networks, this could currently be problematic. So who in the Club is our Transponder expert?  We continually need to explore this, before dismissing it on price or practicality. We have to move forward.
Jonathan L.

david@whitepost.me.uk

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2019, 08:07:14 pm »
How exciting. Worth investigating.

I can’t wait for the route to be on a GPX file too.

Save all of that road book shenanigans! 

Offline Paul Wheatley

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2019, 10:31:44 am »
I'm into technology as much as the next person (my life quite literally depends on it at work) and the road book in electronic form could be a good alternative thing (if that's your "bag").

However, speaking as someone who "observes" more than I compete, I don't think anyone would appreciate it if the results of a hill or the entire trial were wiped out because an observer's mobile phone or other technology ran out of battery power or got wet and failed.

Who would be responsible for the cost of a mobile phone and the "app" - I'm certainly not going to buy one for the benefit of competitors a couple of times a year and I'm not allowed to use my work phone for stuff other than work purposes. I did buy a walkie talkie set to be used on sections, but that's it.

Good thing about water resistant paper and pencil is that it's cheap and there isn't much that can go wrong.

PW.

Offline Stephen Bailey

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 11:26:54 am »
Good thing about water resistant paper and pencil is that it's cheap and there isn't much that can go wrong.

 :)
Posts by myself are personal posts and in no way are an official expression of the MCC. or the MCC Committee.

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Offline Stephen Bailey

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 11:31:58 am »
Isn't it strange that written language started out as picture hieroglyphics then progressed to primitive letters, that evolved to alphabets and then to script. next to electronic alphabets and now emoticon hieroglyphics.....  :)
Posts by myself are personal posts and in no way are an official expression of the MCC. or the MCC Committee.

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Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2019, 09:10:19 am »
Chaps, not sure how many of you guys are familiar with how transponders actually work. Or how they are used and system installed etc.

The Tranx260 is the industry standard for racing and it's what I was using whilst racing in earlystocks.

They are very expensive to buy and will get wiped off a car quite easily and without you even noticing.

I've attached a link below of the instructions for the tranx260 system. This includes installation of the detection loops and installation of the transponder to your vehicle.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://transponderservices.com/docs/AMB_TranX260_Timing_Manual.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwio4dTXorviAhVOShUIHfpcDE8QFjADegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0irt9E6zj-1kepsMF9OPBQ

Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2019, 02:12:38 pm »
I'm not against the idea, I'm in full agreement with Mark Greg. He raises two very valid points.

Quote
.  1. must be affordable and reliable . if anybody has knowledge of the available systems thinks one is appropriate i would certainly consider trialling it. ( no pun intended)

2. The club relies on and is made up of many members who do not compete, for them participating as a marshal/official is their interest this must not be denuded in any way.       

My post was in response to his first point. I have a working knowledge of transpoders and for a reliable system it's not cheap.

Don't know what system they were using on the Welsh 3 day but it specifically says in the tranx instructions to mount them on the outside of the fork legs. This is to ensure that there is no metalwork in-between it's signal and the detection loop buried in the track. This was my concern regards the car competitors. It suggests that they should mount their transponders on the outside of the front wing. In our sport that makes it very vulnerable to getting wiped off.

But more than anything we shouldn't overlook mark's second point. I wouldn't like to be the one telling those timekeeping Marshall's who have done the job for many decades that they have been replaced by a widget.

But having said all that if you need any further information on transponders let me know, if I can I'll happily help. It is something that interests me.

Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2019, 04:20:26 pm »
Ok thanks Ian but maybe we should start with a clear set of requirements.

The very first post mentions " =Marshall's reduced" a few times so I thought that was one of the objectives.

What is it we want the system to do? Is it just start and finish?

Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 05:14:16 pm »
Ian, been doing some research.

I remember doing a city marathon once and we were given a disposable chip which we attached to the laces on our shoes.

So I think this is more like what we are after as a system.

Check out this website. I think the passive RFID system is what we would want. I'e chip has no battery. And the chip is attached to the human and not the vehicle. The human then swipes the chip past an antenna when they start, in and out of time controls and finally at the finish where they hand it over to a finish Marshall along with their numbers.

https://www.raceresult.com/en/systems/passive.php

Offline Paul Wheatley

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2019, 05:55:45 pm »
I did a quick calculation using prices quoted in the Chip2Go shop.
If we used 18 receivers (might need quite a few more) I reckon we're looking at £30,000 plus for a workable system.
The club has recently been trying to cut down costs due to fewer members.
Just saying.....

I can't think of a worse set of conditions for reliable operation of electrical equipment...... What if it breaks down on the day?
PW.

Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2019, 07:11:24 pm »
You wouldn't just switch one system off and one system one.

It would be wise to run both systems simultaneously for a year just to give confidence and iron out the bugs of the electronic version. There will be a learning curve as with all new systems.

Might be worth just using it for time keeping to start with and then add functions on as we gain knowledge and experience.

How did you get to 30k by the way.

Offline Jason Potts

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Re: Transponders
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2019, 07:23:43 pm »
I think there's a hand held scanner that might work out cheaper than the free standing antennas.

This is quite interesting.

https://blog.atlasrfidstore.com/types-of-chip-timing-systems

Btw I'm an engineer not a project manager. Haha never been any good at that.