Dudwood

[Ian Hingley]

I don't understand why the MCC continue to create sections with blind finishes.  I've mentioned this time and time again.  Bikes do not have a reverse gear.  They are very difficult to balance going backwards.  I climbed to the top of Dudwood 2 clean, passed through the ends cards only to met by impenetrable brambles, undergrowth and trees.  'Follow marshal's instructions' it said.  Those instructions were 'go back down'.  You kidding?  My bike is big and heavy, over 50 years old.  I'm in my 60s and cold, wet and tired having been on the road for 14 hours by now.  Manhandling my bike round and slithering back down a steep, slippery, rutted, root-infested hill is just not my idea of fun.  Dangerous.

I've been riding the MCC trials for about 35 years now, so I know the score. This is my first year in Class O, supposedly slightly more gentle.  It's meant to also act as an appetiser for novice riders.  I wonder what the first-time bikers made of Dudwood 2?  I've ridden Dudwood 1 for the 'big boys classes' every year since its inception.  Same 'crash into the brambles, stop and reverse down' approach there.

Any section where the only way out is back through the Sections Begins cards is bound to cause delays.  A minute to climb and a minute to come back down with competitors arriving at minute intervals equals guaranteed delays.

And to have the competitors coming from Dudwood 1 having to pass through the beginning of Dudwood 2 on their way to the Observed Test only made things worse.  Made no sense.  The start marshal was doing a fantastic job of organising and directing the queue, but was obviously finding it exasperating.

Any thoughts?

Regards

Ian

[Jason Potts]

Yes,  I've never understood this either.  My first ever introduction to LDT's was marshalling on cliff quarry. I was up the top by the tree on the deviation  I thought then, this is mad. A lot of the cars were too long to get round the tree in one go so had to do 3 point turns. Which I guess should be a fail by the full letter of the rules. Most struggled and got stuck. We had to help quite a few motorcycles back down the deviation because it was very steep and muddy with a 90deg turn at the bottom. Inevitably we had very long delays and some complaints. The COC even turned up to see what all the hold up was. It's always going to happen when you send people up a dead end. I seam to remember having to tell the start marshal to wait while  we fix the course. People would crash through the barriers trying to make the turn regularly.
There were long delays on that section again this year.

You just can't get competitors up that deviation, back down the deviation and then hammer back in any markers they've wiped out in a minute. It's more like three minutes and thats without dealing with the one's who get stuck.

I'm all for making it tricky and difficult but I'm with you on this, in order to keep it moving and safe it has to be one way traffic.

[Stephen Bailey]

I can only agree. And Dudwood seems too much of an artificial section to be in a Classic Trial.

As fer turning. I seem to remember that the regulations on setting trials out state that the layout of sections must take into account the turning circle of each vehicle entered...….

[Jason Potts]

We waited 40 minutes to do the first section at dudwood. And about the same at cliff quarry. 

But I still enjoyed the event, it's just a shame about those sections.

[Mark Gregg]

Thank you all for your comments. I think its only reasonable that you voice concerns and suggestions for improvements.

lets review cliff quarry first.

Cliff is an excellent venue en-route and owned by enthusiastic supporters of the trial, ideally located to run a full blooded section in the middle of the night and cause no disturbance locally. It used to have a restart, but this caught out even the most experienced occasionally and lay very close to a land drain we and the owners wished to preserve.

in 2017 we made several amendments to the layout including a new diversion for the more sporting vehicles.

the tight uphill turns around the tree were eased and all new escape roads for sucessfull climbers were created for all classes with a new track constructed through the bracken.

for 2018 we hoped to go further and planned a much more straight lined route avoiding the tight uphill turns. HOWEVER the land owner rightly, hi lighted the multi use of the venue and that the tight turns we sought to remove were a popular feature for other user groups. so for 2018 they stayed 2019 may see another format altogether for the site. Reflect that all these physical changes were carried out by one enthusiastic retired club member.

Dudwood farm. This area again has a very respected and keen trial supporter as its owner.

it provides the trial with three sections and one special test.  Two of the sections and the test are icons of the Edinburgh trial. Only the very best competitors in/on the best machinery can hope for clean attempts at the two hills.

should they be straight through runs as per the MCC norm? absolutely. However There is neither the space nor access to allow such a feature in their present layout. Should we significantly shorten both sections and in doing so remove their most testing attributes? to create 'turnaround' spaces for cars and bikes. I'm not convinced a significant majority would accept the lessened challenge.

should we seek alternative layouts and adopt vigorous action plans for failures that worked so well on Litton Slack? Absolutely.

should the two venues remain part of the trial? yes and they will, in 2018 we listened and reduced restarts at both venues, we listened and changed route layouts for the less able vehicles we re still listening and responding and in 2019 i m confident you ll see a difference.

ps we desperately need folks to volunteer to support the planning and setting of sections in the months and week before the trial, at present four people do everything from sign posting to laying sections.     

[Jason Potts]

7.30 is not the middle of the night and yes we caused major disruption.

[Stephen Bailey]

Dudwood farm.Only the very best competitors in/on the best machinery can hope for clean attempts at the two hills.

Mark.... Mmmmmmm…. Thus limiting the number of triples? Or making it way too tough that competitors get despondent?

Yes I know its a fine line...

[Mark Gregg]

Premier awards are by their very nature not easy to achieve,  a Triple by any defintion must be one of the hardest awards in motorsport to win.

This year i think a dozen members could potentially win a triple if they could clean all the Edinburgh sections.

6 members did just that and indeed the only car Triple was won in class 1, an outstanding achievement in any year

so were the accused sections guilty as charged or are they falsly named and shamed ??   

golds became silver for an interesting variety of reasons..

golds were lost on..middleton moor special test x1, clough wood x 1, cliff quarry x4, clough mine x3, dudwood special test x1, litton slack x5, 

I note specifically that NO Triples or even Golds were lost on Dudwood sections..

The only Gold lost at the farm was on the special test....which caused me to look further and in fact FIVE medals of various types were lost on the special tests..

We base our section severity on a simple premise .. a third of sections will require concentration, a third will be testing and the final third will be a challenge. i think that was achieved in 2018.

Class O is a unique MCC class on the Edinburgh. unlike the other two trials class O does all bar two of the main trial sections.. with a couple of major concessions.. NO hill starts AND deviations from the main trial section route, for example on cliff quarry only 10% failed , 20% failed clough wood.. on the other hand, on dudwood 2 only 6 cars cleared the section, but that was a quarter of the class.

So in conclusion was Dudwood the grave yerd of Gold and Triple dreams? absolutely not. Was Cliff Quarry overly tough to stop the same hopefuls? 4 competitors lost golds here, on the other hand there were 45 motorcycles clean and 39 cars clean on the section.

That both sections cause delays is undisputed and will be addressed.   

[Stephen Bailey]

So maybe:

[quote Ratty.]
Only the very best competitors in/on the best machinery can hope for clean attempts at middleton moor special test, clough wood, cliff quarry, clough mine, dudwood special test and litton slack. 
[/quote]

 

[Jason Potts]

OK Mark that all sounds very interesting but we've gone a bit of piste 
No one is disputing that these events shouldn't be challenging.

The original post stated

I climbed to the top of Dudwood 2 clean, passed through the ends cards only to met by impenetrable brambles, undergrowth and trees.

.

Ian is saying he's cleaned the section. So the challenge is over. He's done as far as the results are concerned. But now comes the dangerous part. If you are short (that's me at 5 foot 4 inches) or of a senior generation or slight of build (as are most of the ladies), we are saying it is pretty poor when you have to dismount to try and pull your bike round 180 degrees whilst standing in mud and/or slippery limestone rocks. Some of the bigger bikes can weigh up to 200kg. I have on a couple of these dead end  sections dropped my bike after completing the section, I burnt my leg on the exhaust once and it alway results in a loss of petrol before you can stand it back up again. The opportunity to dent the tank or cause other damage to the bike is also a concern. Car drivers don't have these problems.

So what we are asking is, do other motorcyclists feel the same way about these dead end sections and if so, if there is enough of us in agreement will the club stop running them?

[Stephen Bailey]

I don't like No Through Sections on a Bike or a Car. And I figure sidecar crews have an even worse time.

[Tony Bishop]

I can't imagine that anyone likes "dead end" sections but it is a fact that the hills, byways, old roads etc which used to be the backbone of MCC trials are becoming ever more difficult to find in this era of antipathy to off road motoring.
The MCC is probably unique in it's access to many sections, which are unavailable at other times of the year, due to the club's historic heritage and the extremely hard work of a small but decreasing number of dedicated club members who are prepared to spend time doorstepping landowners and explaining why we should be allowed to use their land.
Unfortunately, to keep a reasonable number of sections available, particularly in such a sensitive area as the Peak District it is necessary to utilise sections like Dudwood. It's either that or accept less sections.

As a comparison with MCC trials, I once rode the Northern in the Lake District. On reflection I cannot recall one section that was not "one way" ( there probably were one or two I accept ) but my abiding memory was of climbing each section and then queuing up at the top with several other bikes before being allowed back down.

Dudwood is not ideal but it is a real challenge and should remain available and a sting in the tail as long as the landowner can be kept on side.

[Stephen Bailey]

Maybe less sections then.

[Paul K]

Maybe less sections then.

Don't think so.  If we have to reverse or turn round to get down, then that just becomes part of the challenge.  We'd all prefer the weather to be cool and dry, but that's going to be a rarity.  Much like the readily availability of sections.

I'm quite happy to reverse/turn round if it means we can use that section.  The only thing that keeps bugging me is falling off 

[Tony Bishop]

If you keep falling off then you don't have an issue with turning round, well not at the top anyway